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uk.telecom.broadband (UK broadband) (uk.telecom.broadband) Discussion of broadband services, technology and equipment as provided in the UK. Discussions of specific services based on ADSL, cable modems or other broadband technology are also on-topic. Advertising is not allowed.

Swapping DSL routers



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 14th 17, 07:46 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Theo[_2_]
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Posts: 28
Default Swapping DSL routers

Quick sanity check: the way Openreach ISPs implement ADSL these days, is it
necessary to program the router with a username and password to authenticate
to the ISP, or is it entirely done by which line you're on?

Does the same apply for LLU ISPs?

For FTTC, do you still get given an Openreach VDSL modem, or is it
integrated now? If you change fibre ISP, do you keep the VDSL modem (with
any login credentials in the modem), or do you have any credentials to
program into a new router?

I'm trying to work out how feasible it is to 'plug and play' routers these
days, or whether you still have to dig into the settings before connecting.

(For the sake of this argument, assume I have a non-ISP-supplied router)

Thanks
Theo
  #2  
Old July 14th 17, 08:42 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Andy Burns[_5_]
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Posts: 138
Default Swapping DSL routers

Theo wrote:

Quick sanity check: the way Openreach ISPs implement ADSL these days, is it
necessary to program the router with a username and password


I think only BT Internet use the line identity to log the user into
broadband, all others need PAP/CHAP authentication.

  #3  
Old July 14th 17, 08:50 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
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Posts: 545
Default Swapping DSL routers

Theo wrote:

[snip]

For ADSL most reputable ISPs require their username and password to be
configured in the router. In general it does not matter where the phone
line is, so long as it is provisioned with ADSL.

The exception is BT and maybe some other ISPs whose customer base is not
considered able to configure a router. In this case a non-ISP supplied
router may require a username and password in order to complete its
configuration but the actual values are irrelevant; the authentication
is by virtue of the phone line.

For FTTC most ISPs will provide you with an appropriate router with
integrated modem, for the cost of postage. In the past the ISP could
ask Openreach to provide a modem as part of the service that the ISP
bought from Openreach, but I think the facility was dicontinued in
February 2016. Such a modem does not have any facility to be configured
with the username and password; it simply presents an Ethernet
connection to the router, and the router is configured with the username
and password.

If you want to configure your own router and modem, that is indeed
possible. For example the Vigor 130 ADSL/VDSL Modem

See: http://www.draytek.co.uk/products/business/vigor-130

.... will allow router with an Ethernet WAN port to connect to either
VDSL or ADSL. Certain Vigor routers can view the line parameters
(speed, SNR margin, error rate) from the V130.

In general, routers are not 'plug and play' you would expect to
configure them with a username and password.

Some ISPs will pre-configure the router they supply with the correct
credentials. Others will configure the router they supply to use the
TR-069 protocol for remote configuration of the router - see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-069

There is nothing to stop the user from disabling this facility on a router.

Hope this helps.

--
Graham J





  #4  
Old July 14th 17, 10:17 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Dick
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Posts: 74
Default Swapping DSL routers

On 14-Jul-17 8:50 PM, Graham J wrote:
Theo wrote:



The exception is BT and maybe some other ISPs whose customer base is not
considered able to configure a router. In this case a non-ISP supplied
router may require a username and password in order to complete its
configuration but the actual values are irrelevant; the authentication
is by virtue of the phone line.


The values are not irrelevant, although authenticated against phone
number a generic login of is required.
  #5  
Old July 14th 17, 10:44 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 263
Default Swapping DSL routers

"Graham J" wrote in message
news
For FTTC most ISPs will provide you with an appropriate router with
integrated modem, for the cost of postage. In the past the ISP could ask
Openreach to provide a modem as part of the service that the ISP bought
from Openreach, but I think the facility was dicontinued in February 2016.
Such a modem does not have any facility to be configured with the username
and password; it simply presents an Ethernet connection to the router, and
the router is configured with the username and password.


When I was called to a customer the other day to sort out an internet
connection problem I saw that TalkTalk had supplied their own wireless
router, with both ADSL and Ethernet inputs, and this was connected to a
BT-branded VDSL (fibre) modem. That's the first time I've seen a two-part
setup, presumably from the early days of the fibre rollout; everyone else
had had a single box (eg BT HomeHub 5) which is combined ADSL/VDSL modem and
router.

We're with Plusnet and they supply a Plusnet-badged router (might be
Technicolour, or have they changed to SageCom now?) free of charge apart
from 5 P&P. I could have used it but decided to upgrade from my previous
TP-Link router to a later model of TP-Link that has VDSL as well as ADSL,
because it had useful features like port-forwarding (so we can access our
security cameras from the outside world when we are on holiday) and reserved
DHCP (ie the router still supplies an IP address by DHCP, but always the
same one for specified MAC addresses) which is needed for the security
cameras and our wireless printer.

Talking of Plusnet, they hard-code the username into the router - ie the one
that they sent to me had my username; the one they send to someone else will
have his username hard-coded.

  #6  
Old July 14th 17, 11:43 PM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Theo[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Swapping DSL routers

Graham J wrote:
Hope this helps.


Thanks all. So it sounds like any new connection is going to require the
user:

a) knowing what the heck the login credentials are, since typically the ISP
doesn't tell you
b) knowing how to configure them in the router

That's annoying. The reason I ask is that it's a pain these days to
reconfigure all the wifi devices you have when changing ISP. I had hoped
you could just move an existing router to a new connection, but it seems
not. The alternative is knowing how to change the new ISP's router's SSID
and key to match the existing one.

All of these happen when there's not enough internet connection to be able
to use a remote access tool, at least if there's no ethernet computer
accessible. I suppose a Raspberry Pi or something with an auto-connecting
VPN tunnel might be a worth a try.

Theo
  #7  
Old July 15th 17, 07:45 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Woody
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 568
Default Swapping DSL routers


"Theo" wrote in message
...
Graham J wrote:
Hope this helps.


Thanks all. So it sounds like any new connection is going to
require the
user:

a) knowing what the heck the login credentials are, since typically
the ISP
doesn't tell you
b) knowing how to configure them in the router

That's annoying. The reason I ask is that it's a pain these days to
reconfigure all the wifi devices you have when changing ISP. I had
hoped
you could just move an existing router to a new connection, but it
seems
not. The alternative is knowing how to change the new ISP's
router's SSID
and key to match the existing one.

All of these happen when there's not enough internet connection to
be able
to use a remote access tool, at least if there's no ethernet
computer
accessible. I suppose a Raspberry Pi or something with an
auto-connecting
VPN tunnel might be a worth a try.



Curiously, TT Tech Support in their POBroadband guise will tell you
the username and password if asked.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #8  
Old July 15th 17, 08:07 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Graham J[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 545
Default Swapping DSL routers

Theo wrote:
Graham J wrote:
Hope this helps.


Thanks all. So it sounds like any new connection is going to require the
user:

a) knowing what the heck the login credentials are, since typically the ISP
doesn't tell you
b) knowing how to configure them in the router

That's annoying. The reason I ask is that it's a pain these days to
reconfigure all the wifi devices you have when changing ISP. I had hoped
you could just move an existing router to a new connection, but it seems
not. The alternative is knowing how to change the new ISP's router's SSID
and key to match the existing one.

All of these happen when there's not enough internet connection to be able
to use a remote access tool, at least if there's no ethernet computer
accessible. I suppose a Raspberry Pi or something with an auto-connecting
VPN tunnel might be a worth a try.



I think you're confusing several different login credentials.

Your item (a) - if this means the login credentials for the broadband
service every reputable ISP will tell you them. Some (Plusnet) will let
you choose a password when you place the order. Others (Zen) will tell
you what they have configured when they send an email confirming the order.

Your item (b) requires two things: and Ethernet cabled connection
between a computer and the router; and knowledge of the username and
password for the router. The latter is available by Googling if you
know the make and model of the router; it should also be provided by
whoever supplied the router. Whatever, the user should always change it
to something known only to himself (herself) and make a note of it, so
knowledge of the login details and how to change them is mandatory for a
secure system.

Given this, there is no reason to change the router just because you
change ISP. Clearly if you are changing from ADSL to VDSL the old
router may not support VDSL so you will have to change the router.

The credentials for the WiFi connection are I agree a pain. Generally
the SSID and security key configured in the router can be changed, but
it requires the user to have a cabled connection as discussed above
about your item (b). That way the credentials of the new router can be
configured to match those of the old router that is being removed. In
principle all the WiFi clients should conenct immediately; however I
have known devices that require the existing connection to be deleted
and re-created with the same credentials. Things like TVs have such an
awful user interface that setting up a reasonably long and complex
security key can be a real challenge. But for a laptop or smartphone it
is usually straightforward.

None of this should be beyond the capabilities of anybody who can follow
simple written instructions. There's no need for the user to hve any
specialist knowledge. Sadly this probably means that only 20% of the
population will ever be able to configure a router for themselves.

So there's always a market for a local support service that can help the
80% of the population that can't do it for themselves. This also helps
resolve other problems such as lack of microfilters, multiple telephone
connections implemented incorrectly, unreasonable expectations for the
area that the WiFi signal will cover, and maintaining proper documentation.

--
Graham J

  #9  
Old July 15th 17, 10:49 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 263
Default Swapping DSL routers

"Graham J" wrote in message
news
unreasonable expectations for the area that the WiFi signal will cover,
and maintaining proper documentation.


The customer with the separate modem and TalkTalk router (mentioned earlier
int he thread) had very poor wireless coverage: a PC about 3 m away along
the landing got a signal strength of between 3/5 and 1/5 bars, and
occasionally showed no connection (ie a star overlaid on the 5-bar icon).

It turned out that the router was set to auto-channel, and was choosing a
stupid channel that was occupied by several fairly strong neighbouring
networks, whereas another (non-overlapping) channel had a much weaker
neighbouring network. I hard-coded the router to this second channel and
things improved dramatically.

How often does a router with auto-channel change channels if it finds new
networks which weren't there previously?

  #10  
Old July 15th 17, 11:21 AM posted to uk.telecom.broadband
Roderick Stewart
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Posts: 462
Default Swapping DSL routers

On 14 Jul 2017 23:43:14 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

Thanks all. So it sounds like any new connection is going to require the
user:

a) knowing what the heck the login credentials are, since typically the ISP
doesn't tell you
b) knowing how to configure them in the router


Yes. You can't configure anything without knowing the required
configuration details. It's that or accept the defaults.

That's annoying. The reason I ask is that it's a pain these days to
reconfigure all the wifi devices you have when changing ISP. I had hoped
you could just move an existing router to a new connection, but it seems
not. The alternative is knowing how to change the new ISP's router's SSID
and key to match the existing one.


You can use a new wireless router on an existing connection, but
you'll have to configure it to the old router's settings if you don't
want to reconfigure everything that was wirelessly connected to it.

If you're actually talking about a combined modem/router, which is
often what people mean when they refer to a "router", you'll probably
have to reconfigure the modem section as well, though I have seen new
ADSL modems pick up the ADSL connection details automatically. I guess
it depends on the service, and the modem.

All of these happen when there's not enough internet connection to be able
to use a remote access tool, at least if there's no ethernet computer
accessible. I suppose a Raspberry Pi or something with an auto-connecting
VPN tunnel might be a worth a try.


Ideally you need something with an ethernet connection. It can be done
by wireless, but it's awkward. An ethernet-connected laptop running
any operating system will do, as long as it has a web browser.

Rod.
 




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